00:00
[Music]
00:02
what happens after death could we ever
00:07
come back I think like II would live up
00:11
to death the answer may come from
00:13
children remembering a life before they
00:16
were born our work provides evidence
00:19
that we should strongly consider the
00:21
possibility of reincarnation embark on a
00:25
scientific search for evidence of
00:27
reincarnation listen to the stories of
00:30
these children who remember a past life
00:33
[Music]
00:47
[Music]
00:52
everybody was asleep when the fire came
00:59
[Music]
01:02
mah mean that he could not get me out I
01:07
stay it with the fire the fire was hot I
01:14
know my knew that he would be happy
01:18
[Music]
01:20
the memory of a child not of death but
01:24
of a new life
01:26
[Music]
01:29
is there life after death
01:31
an age-old question at the University of
01:35
Virginia in Charlottesville scientists
01:37
are investigating claims of
01:39
reincarnation for over 40 years they
01:41
have tried to explain the accounts of
01:43
young children who speak of a past life
01:46
stories like the one of this girl who
01:48
claims to have drowned and is now reborn
01:51
for this six-year-old boy who thinks he
01:54
used to be a New York policeman killed
01:55
in the line of duty or this boy who
02:00
remembers having lived as his own
02:01
grandfather there are thousands of
02:04
stories like this and dr. Jim Tucker has
02:06
gathered many of them
02:08
[Music]
02:10
we're investigating cases of very young
02:13
children who spontaneously begin talking
02:16
about previous lives they usually begin
02:19
between the ages of two and three and
02:21
continue until the age of five or six
02:23
we're looking at these cases to learn as
02:26
much as possible about this phenomenon
02:29
the Jim Tucker is preparing a research
02:32
trip to meet one of his subjects a child
02:36
claiming to remember a past life
02:39
[Music]
02:43
Gus Ortega is a little boy in Colorado
02:46
who has talked about being his
02:49
grandfather this began when he was 18
02:51
months old and he's made a number of
02:53
statements that seem quite specific this
02:56
one is a stronger case because the child
03:01
has made some very specific statements
03:03
that seems very unlikely he could have
03:05
heard through normal means Gus or take
03:10
his case he's only one of many we've
03:13
been studying these cases for the last
03:15
40 years we've now collected over 2700
03:19
cases like this these cases have been
03:23
found all over Asia in West Africa
03:27
they've been found in South America in
03:28
Europe and the United States pretty much
03:32
wherever they've been look for the most
03:35
convincing cases however are found on an
03:37
island south of the Indian subcontinent
03:39
in sri lanka
03:41
[Music]
03:46
sri lanka a mystical place a place also
03:53
where people believe strongly in
03:55
reincarnation most of the islands
03:58
inhabitants are buddhists one of the
04:00
reasons may be why there are so many
04:02
cases of children remembering a previous
04:04
life
04:06
[Music]
04:20
professor AirLand Earl haraldson
04:23
of the University of Iceland on his way
04:25
to visit his best case he has spent over
04:27
a decade studying a possibility of
04:29
reincarnation on this island
04:31
Sri Lanka is a good place to study cases
04:34
of children who speak about the past
04:36
life because here you find few cases
04:41
every year
04:42
[Music]
04:45
and Harrelson's cases are more
04:47
convincing than any american case the
04:50
cases in sri lanka and in the united
04:53
states differ in several respects first
04:57
of all in the states these are mostly in
04:59
family cases here in see lanka in family
05:04
cases are rare I've only had a few and
05:07
secondly the details seem to be greater
05:11
here in this country
05:13
[Music]
05:16
what makes Harrelson's cases so
05:19
intriguing is that the children remember
05:21
not the life of another family members
05:22
but that of a complete stranger
05:25
haraldson crosses half the island to
05:28
meet with his most fascinating research
05:30
subject a girl by the name of Dellucci
05:34
this is a very interesting case because
05:38
the look she was talking about memories
05:40
from a previous life for almost three
05:42
years and doing so persistently and
05:45
repeating the same story over and over
05:47
again
05:47
the little girl haraldson is about to
05:50
meet shocked her parents when she said
05:52
that she was not really their child she
05:54
claims she had another mother and father
05:56
elsewhere she was saying
06:03
that's they were saw stream there she
06:06
had fallen across three unknown
06:09
haraldson hopes the trip to meet
06:11
Dellucci may yield some answers I was
06:15
always interested these images or
06:18
thoughts or behavioural characteristics
06:20
that are sort of out of jus with their
06:23
with their present life how did they
06:25
arise how do they come into this
06:27
children in a place not quite that far
06:36
away a hospital in America an old man is
06:50
dying and a young boy believes he is
06:57
this man reborn
07:00
[Music]
07:02
Gus Ortega is a normal six-year-old like
07:06
most boys he cherishes his time with his
07:08
dad but this relationship is different
07:12
Gus remembers that he played with his
07:15
dad
07:15
in a previous life only then he was the
07:19
father and his dad was his son this is
07:24
the case that UVA scientist Jim Tucker
07:26
is investigated whenever I go to see a
07:28
case I go with a certain amount of
07:31
skepticism
07:31
I never go with the assumption that this
07:34
is reincarnation and that's also the
07:38
same at first that I have with what the
07:40
work as a whole we're here because this
07:44
is interesting phenomenon so we're
07:46
trying to learn as much about it as
07:47
possible grandpa
07:55
Augie died in 1993 his son Ron found him
07:59
lying on the floor in his home a stroke
08:03
grandpa Augie
08:04
died five hours later he was a
08:08
shopkeeper he sold everything people
08:11
wanted to buy and he loved his family
08:13
but he never met his grandson Gus Gus
08:18
was born one year after grandpa Auggie's
08:20
death one day when he was just a year
08:22
and a half Gus was alone in his room
08:25
with his father Braun came out and told
08:28
me that he'd just finished changing
08:30
Auggie's diaper and that he that he
08:34
looked right up and Edmond said
08:36
you know dad when I was your age I used
08:38
to change your diaper I was
08:40
flabbergasted be honest with you I
08:42
thought it was just kind of strange
08:44
especially the choice of words to say
08:49
that phrase When I was your age for his
08:52
this little one and a half year old
08:54
toddler he started talking about grandpa
09:02
and you know just the little things he
09:06
was saying that we knew he couldn't have
09:12
known because he never met grandpa yeah
09:15
we were pretty puzzled about it then one
09:20
day Ragno tiga brought a set of old
09:22
photos home and something even more
09:24
remarkable occurred and I said oh look
09:27
here's look at this old photograph and
09:30
he came up to it he goes oh there's me I
09:34
mean I was like just totally astounded
09:38
you know it just stopped me and you know
09:43
cold I mean cuz how would he know that
09:46
[Music]
09:48
Gus would make more statements like that
09:50
over the course of the next years he
09:54
would recollect episodes of his
09:55
grandfather's lives that even Ron could
09:57
hardly remember and he was there
10:02
Gus knew more about his grandfather than
10:06
he should have is this evidence of
10:10
reincarnation how else can these
10:13
children remember another life the case
10:17
files of dr. Jim Tucker will yield more
10:20
clues Sri Lanka on his way to
10:36
investigate claims of reincarnation
10:38
professor haraldson and his translator
10:41
finally arrived at the home of Dellucci
10:42
niece ANCA she's the girl who remembers
10:50
having drowned in a river and is now
10:52
reborn the newpsies case is one of the
10:58
best perhaps even the best of the cases
11:01
that we have studied here concealed
11:02
under Professor haraldson has conducted
11:07
two major psychological studies
11:08
concerning children who remember a past
11:11
life surprisingly their psychological
11:14
characteristics are not much different
11:16
from children who never report such
11:17
memories except for one crucial
11:20
difference
11:23
in the studies I am made on their
11:27
psychological characteristics you even
11:31
find that someone is children tend to
11:35
have what they call a post-traumatic
11:37
stress disorder
11:39
the question is how does it get there
11:43
they have not experienced anything
11:45
particularly threatening in this life
11:48
but they have these images of having
11:52
died in another life this may be the
11:56
reason for this apparent post-traumatic
12:00
stress disorder as the Luke see really
12:04
lived before these children they are
12:07
experiencing something real it is
12:09
psychologically real they have these
12:12
images of of what they interpret as a
12:16
past life and some of these are
12:21
concerned with how they died in the
12:23
alleged previous life and it and that's
12:26
usually a painful way of death it's a
12:29
violent death unexpected that sudden
12:31
death could Dellucci just be making her
12:37
stories up
12:40
if they were making up something some
12:45
fantasies then one would expect them
12:49
rally to make up some fantasies or a
12:51
better life or something that would be
12:54
of some satisfaction to them but to
12:57
think about how they died is not really
13:01
a pleasurable fantasy for the Masanga
13:07
family the Lucchese memories are painful
13:10
every time they talk about it they are
13:12
reminded that the Luke she does not feel
13:14
part of their family it is especially
13:17
difficult for her mother she first
13:24
started speaking of her previous life
13:25
when we took her to Montessori Preschool
13:27
she also mentioned when we went to the
13:29
temple that her temple was in a
13:31
different place again when we had our
13:37
meals and went to bed at night she would
13:39
again mention her previous life in fact
13:45
I had become so irritated by what she
13:47
was saying that I beat her once very bad
13:53
about all of this that like she was
13:55
constantly speaking about her previous
13:57
family it felt as if she was condemning
13:59
me for being a bad mother for not
14:01
looking after her properly could you
14:03
tell us what it is that she still
14:06
remembers there was a footbridge across
14:10
the stream near my house
14:12
[Music]
14:16
people from the village would walk
14:18
across the bridge and bathe in the
14:20
street young man okay there was a rock
14:24
near my house where I used to play shop
14:25
with my friends mean oh my god
14:35
I have always felt that I don't belong
14:37
in my present family their furniture and
14:39
belongings are different from the family
14:41
I remember I remembered very clearly the
14:44
clothes and goods of my previous family
14:46
from my earliest memories I felt like an
14:49
outsider and that I must do whatever I
14:51
could to find my real family I did my
14:54
dating Daan know me Maggie enemy mommy
14:57
Ramallah dealer in the video which means
15:02
these memories are real to Dellucci
15:06
the day I died I went to the stream to
15:09
swim with a friend of mine
15:11
[Music]
15:22
[Applause]
15:24
[Music]
15:28
and then somebody pushed me
15:32
[Music]
15:50
I was in the water when I died when I
15:56
was grandpa avi I died in the hospital
16:12
[Music]
16:20
when I went to heaven God gave me a card
16:30
everybody was a card like that is
16:33
allowed to come back I want it to come
16:42
back
16:43
[Music]
16:54
the Ortega home in Colorado Jim Tucker
16:58
from the University of Virginia cannot
16:59
just reject what little Gus has to say
17:02
about a previous life there are
17:05
certainly a lot of people who will
17:07
simply dismiss this work because it
17:11
disagrees too much with their
17:13
assumptions about how the world works
17:14
but to dismiss something because it
17:18
disagrees with your assumptions is
17:19
really not very scientific so we have
17:23
this phenomenon and we have the evidence
17:27
that it's involved with this phenomenon
17:28
so the scientific approach is to explore
17:33
it and learn all we can about it the
17:38
Ortega home in Colorado dr. Jim Tucker
17:41
is interviewing Gus Ortega Gus claims to
17:44
have lived before as his grandfather
17:47
yeah and and was were you a little boy
17:53
when you were doing that or was that
17:54
when you're good that's when you were
17:56
big
18:00
is Gus telling the truth Tucker has no
18:04
way of knowing that is why the most
18:06
crucial information in many cases come
18:08
from the parents Jim Tucker interviews
18:11
kathy and ron ortega standard procedure
18:14
[Music]
18:15
and when was the next time that he said
18:19
something that suggested he had
18:22
information can you have that he knew
18:23
things about her David because Ted I had
18:26
a sister but she died she's a fish now
18:30
and we said she's a fish what do you
18:33
mean what happened and she said he said
18:36
well some bad guys hurt her
18:40
mm-hm and that really made me stop
18:44
because I only recently heard the whole
18:49
facts of this story about my father's
18:51
sister and she indeed was murdered and
18:57
she was thrown into San Francisco Bay a
19:00
family secret little Gus could never
19:03
have heard about this story because even
19:06
Ron Ortega did not know about his
19:07
father's sister how could his son I
19:10
really hadn't thought of reincarnation
19:13
or even putting that word in connection
19:18
with what was happening I wasn't brought
19:20
up you know with
19:23
learning about reincarnation I was
19:26
brought up Southern Baptist and
19:30
certainly did not hear about
19:32
reincarnation if you had told me that a
19:37
year ago yeah right you've come back
19:41
uh-huh but you know now anything can
19:49
happen anything in his hotel room Jim
19:57
Tucker reviews his notes there are many
20:00
questions especially when it comes to
20:02
same family cases like the Ortega's
20:05
whenever we investigate a case we
20:08
certainly have to assess the reliability
20:10
of the informants with the same family
20:12
case we always have the concern that the
20:15
family members are grieving for the lost
20:18
family member and therefore have the
20:20
wish that the child would be returned
20:24
despite the possible weaknesses what
20:27
cases likely Ortega's there are still
20:29
many questions that nobody seems to have
20:31
convincing answers to whether you accept
20:36
the idea that this necessarily means
20:38
reincarnation which means a soul that
20:40
moves from one body to the next that's
20:43
for each person to decide
20:46
[Music]
21:17
professor haraldson and his translator
21:19
climbed the steep steps to one of Sri
21:21
Lanka's most recognizable landmarks the
21:24
famous rock temple of dambulla the next
21:28
step in the investigation of this case
21:30
leads us here to the tombola temple
21:32
because she look she had spoken about it
21:35
and then the family they decided to do
21:40
something about the oopsies thought the
21:45
loops his parents decided to call the up
21:48
on living in this temple and asked him
21:51
if he knew of any girl who had died in
21:53
this area and to fit the description
21:55
given by the Lucy
22:05
[Music]
22:13
in most of the countries where we find
22:16
this cases there is a belief in
22:18
reincarnation if a culture principally
22:23
allows for the concept of rebirth
22:25
does that make reports of previous lives
22:28
more likely may that be one of the
22:31
reasons why the best cases can be found
22:34
in places like Sri Lanka Sri Lanka we
22:39
find most of the cases among Buddhist
22:42
families of course the majority of the
22:44
population here is Buddhist about 2/3
22:46
but we also find some cases among
22:49
Christians and we even find a few among
22:52
the Muslims so the cases in-cylinder are
22:56
found in all the major religious
22:59
communities the key to solving the
23:04
Lucchese case may very well lie with the
23:06
abbot of the rock temple harrelson and
23:10
his translator can count on the fact
23:12
that here their investigation will be
23:15
taken seriously because reincarnation is
23:18
a common concept for a Buddhist monk
23:25
Buddhism teaches us that reincarnation
23:27
exists it happens due to the
23:30
accumulation of good and bad deeds which
23:33
we call karma our desire to live in this
23:37
world pulls us into our next birth and
23:39
the number of good and bad deeds we have
23:42
performed determined the circumstances
23:44
of our next birth narrative even see the
23:47
ending but in the case of Dellucci the
23:54
abbot is unable to help he knows of no
23:57
other family that matches de Lucy's
23:59
memories instead he refers the
24:03
scientists to the local newspaper a
24:05
personal friend of the Abbott's a
24:07
journalist decided to investigate the
24:10
Lucchese claims after speaking with the
24:11
monk this is how they study continued
24:15
mr. happy Paulo he learned about the
24:18
case he went and interviewer T Lucy and
24:22
the parents about what she had been
24:25
saying about a previous life it wasn't
24:27
published a few days later and
24:32
this newspaper has a distribution in the
24:35
country
24:37
for the journalists it was a good story
24:40
mama gay Abunda day I consider this case
24:43
unique because for over 30 years I've
24:45
researched these types of stories and
24:47
have come across various people who
24:49
talked about their previous births but
24:51
this one is one in a thousand the Bible
24:55
his readers were enthralled with
24:58
Dellucci she's mysterious memories and
25:00
the remarkable details she remembered
25:14
but for now one question remains
25:17
unanswered will the scientists find a
25:20
match toodaloo cheese memories of an
25:22
earlier life and death
25:25
a newspaper journalist had written an
25:36
article about de Loup she's memories of
25:38
a past life the article mentioned that
25:42
the girl thinks she used to live near
25:43
the dambulla rock temple several weeks
25:48
after the article was published the mail
25:50
arrives at the nice Anka home when the
26:00
postman handed mr. nice Anka his mail
26:03
that day he was surprised to find one
26:06
letter postmarked from dambulla he had
26:10
no friends or relatives in that part of
26:11
the country when he opened the letter he
26:18
was stunned
26:20
[Music]
26:26
aw meaning I was very surprised to
26:29
receive a letter by a mr. Ron Otunga
26:31
he lives in dambulla I was stunned when
26:34
I read that his little daughter had died
26:35
just the way to look she had always
26:37
talked about he talked about the river
26:39
and the footbridge his little girl was
26:41
called Sharona she Romy's father
26:45
confirmed many of Dellucci statements
26:47
and he said he would like to meet her I
26:52
missed my previous parents very much and
26:54
I longed to see them again after this
26:57
letter my second mother was finally
26:59
convinced and she agreed we would go and
27:01
meet with them they will be learning
27:03
[Music]
27:05
there was nothing her current parents
27:08
could do Dellucci was now determined to
27:11
meet the people who she believed were
27:13
her true family if they would not take
27:16
her to them she threatened to run away
27:21
[Music]
27:23
the letter finally convinced to Lucchese
27:26
parents they were going to take her to
27:29
the place where she thinks she died they
27:37
took Dellucci on a six-hour drive to
27:39
dambulla when they came closer to the
27:42
city Dellucci began to recognize
27:44
landmarks she even started to direct the
27:48
driver toward the house where her
27:50
previous family lived
28:01
even today after several meetings it is
28:05
still a moving reunion
28:07
[Music]
28:22
for professor haraldson a rare
28:25
opportunity to witness what could be two
28:28
lives intersecting this meeting is quite
28:32
emotional it's only about in a third of
28:35
all cases in sri lanka that you were
28:38
able to find a connection between what
28:40
what that child the same and a previous
28:43
family or a person who died but fits
28:46
description this is sorry there
28:51
professor haraldson is astounded by the
28:54
change in character as soon as Dellucci
28:56
meets her previous family she is less
28:58
withdrawn and seems to fit in much more
29:01
naturally with this family
29:06
could she really be this little girl
29:09
reborn a CD mandingo Dhokla lay on my
29:13
dear Jeremy was a very obedient girl who
29:16
never left the house without informing
29:18
us where she was going she always left
29:20
the house with her younger brother and
29:22
her sister to swim or to play and one
29:25
day she just did not come back I was so
29:29
upset that sure ami hadn't returned home
29:31
that I ran about looking for her when
29:34
they found her in the water I fainted
29:36
upon hearing I'd lost my daughter Wendy
29:52
Luke she was brought here she was able
29:53
to recognize us as her previous parents
29:56
she was also able to recognize her old
29:58
belongings and the neighbors who live
30:00
nearby all of this convinced me she was
30:03
my child reborn
30:11
my favorite thing up came to the
30:14
developer mama I know I am that little
30:16
girl over there in that picture when I
30:20
saw my previous parents and previous
30:22
brother and sister I felt very happy
30:24
it felt like I was finally returning
30:26
home after a very long time away
30:29
[Music]
30:32
at the end of the day Dellucci takes
30:35
professor haraldson for a walk to show
30:37
him the sights of her previous life when
30:41
we compare how well these statements fit
30:44
the life of Shiro me we find that about
30:47
trello of them of behave around 20 but
30:50
12 of them fit specific Dellucci leads
30:58
professor haraldson to the rock where
31:00
she claims she played as little shoroma
31:02
it is a flat rock formation just as she
31:05
had described the footbridge over the
31:14
Little River is also there
31:16
[Music]
31:19
and this is the spot where Shiro me fell
31:23
into the water when I come to this
31:26
particular spot I become very afraid in
31:29
general I am not afraid of water when I
31:32
come to this spot I get very scared
31:36
Dellucci tells the scientists that she
31:38
remembers black spots just before she
31:40
died
31:41
haraldson thinks the water plants
31:43
growing in the river might account for
31:45
this I think there is something real
31:47
that she has some real images of this
31:53
events but I think too these images
31:57
these thoughts you are with from a very
32:00
early age and even continue to some
32:03
extent in the present day Dellucci
32:08
herself is convinced that she died here
32:12
in her previous life for many who
32:18
evaluate the evidence that haraldson and
32:20
his colleagues have gathered the answer
32:21
is simple if you believe in
32:24
reincarnation
32:25
this research gives some scientific
32:28
basis to this belief I think there's
32:32
some likelihood of life after death and
32:34
I think that there might be something
32:37
real in this memories and that would
32:39
then support the theory of reincarnation
32:46
[Music]
32:52
but despite how convincing de Lucchese
32:54
case may sound not everybody agrees with
32:57
these findings one of the dissenters is
33:00
dr. Richard Wiseman of the University of
33:02
Hertfordshire near London he has taken a
33:05
long hard look at the evidence that the
33:07
reincarnation scientists have compiled
33:09
the question if what's going on there
33:12
and I think part of the problem with
33:14
assessing the situation is you simply
33:16
don't know the role that chance could
33:18
play in order to answer that question
33:22
Wiseman has devised a very simple
33:25
experiment he invited a random selection
33:28
of children into his Institute and asked
33:30
them the same questions that researchers
33:32
investigating claims of past lives would
33:34
ask the experiment that I carried out
33:38
was really to test the notion that if
33:41
you took a child and simply had to make
33:43
up a story can you take that information
33:46
then go away and compare it to the
33:49
details of children who unfortunately
33:50
have actually died and find some kind of
33:53
match the type of match that the
33:55
researchers are involved in
33:56
reincarnation claims actually find in
33:59
their work more often than not the
34:03
children would easily engage Wiseman in
34:05
a conversation about dying my experiment
34:09
aimed to do was to find out the role
34:11
that chance plays in claims of
34:13
reincarnation dr. Wiseman videotaped his
34:17
interviews with the children in order to
34:19
have a record of their fantasies after
34:21
an initial period of shyness the
34:23
children opened up and played along with
34:25
Wiseman's experiment one of the children
34:29
I spoke to was Molly and we asked her
34:32
just to make up a story
34:34
she came up with the idea of another
34:36
child called Katie who was also three at
34:45
all she had blue eyes she's wearing a
34:50
pink dress with with flowers onyx that
35:33
was the story that Molly came up with
35:37
now what we wanted to know was if you
35:40
took that story and you tried to match
35:42
it against stories where genuine
35:44
children unfortunately had actually died
35:46
could you find a match what we found was
35:49
quite remarkable we look through the
35:53
newspaper archives for stories often
35:57
very tragic stories where children have
35:59
been involved in accidents or have been
36:00
abducted been killed and so on one
36:04
particular story matched the imaginary
36:07
story that Molly had given us the actual
36:10
child was three years old the actual
36:12
child had red hair blue eyes a pink
36:15
dress with flowers on it the child lived
36:18
very close to the seaside and enjoy
36:20
going to the beach one day they ran away
36:22
from the house unfortunately reducted
36:26
and were killed
36:27
so out of the 17 facts that Molly gave
36:30
us 13 of them were absolutely correct
36:35
now if Molly was claiming to have lived
36:37
before this would be the reincarnation
36:40
case of the decade this result even
36:46
spooked Molly's mother who knew for
36:49
certain that her daughter had only made
36:51
up the story I found that quite shocking
36:55
there was actually something really
36:57
happened and because I know even if
37:00
there's no connection you sort of
37:02
instant you feel connected then to
37:03
something because you know what Molly
37:07
made our points and he sort of felt
37:09
connected or felt for the parents of
37:11
that particular child the notion that
37:15
we've lived before is obviously very
37:17
very radical and so part of what I was
37:19
doing was trying to work out how can we
37:22
assess the validity of the claims for
37:24
reincarnation I don't think we're
37:26
finding out anything about the
37:27
paranormal I don't think we finding out
37:29
nothing about whether or not we actually
37:30
live in a previous life we're finding
37:33
out a great deal about psychology about
37:35
the way in which people can fool us and
37:38
we can fool ourselves
37:44
but what if they were reincarnation
37:46
cases that would not ultimately rely
37:48
only on the memories of young children
37:51
Jim Tucker is on his way to another case
37:54
from a category of cases that his
37:57
critics will find much harder to
37:59
disprove the more that the cases were
38:02
found and once started come up with
38:04
birthmarks and birth defects and we
38:06
found that in many cases there was a
38:09
striking correlation between the birth
38:11
marks on the children and wings of the
38:13
trees the personalities had and we've
38:16
been able to track down autopsy reports
38:19
or medical records to make sure that in
38:21
fact there was a match there for the
38:26
first time these birthmarks provide a
38:28
physically verifiable piece of evidence
38:31
suggesting reincarnation we don't have a
38:36
lot of American cases that have the
38:38
birthmarks of birth defects along with
38:41
the memories we do have some but it's
38:42
unusual so we certainly like to
38:45
investigate all those that we can
38:52
and Jim Tucker is about to visit one of
38:54
these cases he is boarding a flight to
39:00
Florida to meet a boy who remembers
39:06
being a New York policeman killed in a
39:10
hail of gunfire
39:11
[Music]
39:20
when I was big I was a police officer
39:23
[Music]
39:30
I walked into a store one night
39:35
they were bad guys too
39:37
[Music]
39:43
they shot me dead
39:49
[Music]
39:57
Pensacola the home of Maria Hagedorn she
40:02
is the mother of two children
40:03
two-year-old Mia and five-year-old Ian
40:06
Ian is a very sick boy
40:11
[Music]
40:13
Maria Hagedorn son suffers from a very
40:15
rare heart disease if he exerts himself
40:18
too much he struggles for air and faints
40:21
[Music]
40:25
trips to the family cardiologist a
40:27
frequent
40:28
continued observation a must little Ian
40:33
had six major heart operations before he
40:35
turned four he was a big healthy eight
40:39
and a half pound baby and they took him
40:40
off they said to take a bath give him a
40:42
bath and they never came back
40:46
hello over an hour went by so I sent my
40:48
husband off to find the baby and he came
40:51
back quite a bit later with two doctors
40:55
and they are all crying very visibly
40:57
shaken which I knew that the news was
41:00
not good the doctors told Maria that Ian
41:03
would not live through his first day
41:05
only an emergency operation would save
41:07
his life
41:08
six hours after his birth Ian underwent
41:10
major heart surgery ian had under
41:14
development of the pulmonary valve which
41:17
is the artery right here we see in this
41:19
drawing and that caused the right side
41:21
of his heart not to develop as well and
41:24
what that leads to is a lack of oxygen
41:25
there's blood so it's a condition where
41:28
he is essentially suffocating because
41:31
not enough oxygen is delivered to the
41:34
brain and to the rest of the body
41:35
[Music]
41:43
the in surgery went well after almost
41:47
nine hours a team of doctors managed to
41:49
repair the valve but the under
41:52
development of the right side of his
41:53
heart would take time and more
41:56
operations
41:57
[Music]
42:03
Ian's life is still at risk today what
42:06
brings Jim Tucker to this case is an
42:09
event that took place over a year before
42:11
ian was born my dad was a police officer
42:16
and he walked into RadioShack and he
42:19
could tell something was going on two
42:21
guys up at the front desk pulled a
42:23
machine gun out of their overcoat and
42:25
pointed it at the manager and my dad
42:28
pulled his revolver and said drop your
42:30
weapons I'm a police officer and
42:32
somebody who was shooting him after
42:35
quite immediately after he said that Jim
42:40
Tucker and Maria Hagedorn review her
42:42
father's autopsy report eerily the cause
42:45
of death jumps out of anyone reading
42:47
this report Maria's father died from a
42:49
ruptured pulmonary artery caused by a
42:51
gunshot wound the same artery that is
42:54
causing Ian's misery but something else
42:56
happened that seemed even stranger to
42:58
IANS mother the first time was when he
43:01
was about three and I was doing some
43:04
work in my office and he was making
43:06
quite a bit of noise and I had
43:08
threatened him with a spanking if he
43:10
didn't quiet down and he stood there and
43:12
looked at me and said when you're a
43:14
little girl and I was your daddy lots of
43:17
times you were bad and I never spanked
43:19
you which just kind of blew me away he
43:23
didn't get a spanking
43:24
[Music]
43:27
and then Ian began to talk more about
43:29
his grandfather going up we had two cats
43:34
a black hat and a white cat and the
43:36
black hat was maniac and the white cat
43:39
was Boston so one day we were I was
43:41
doing something and Ian came over to me
43:43
and he said mom when you were a little
43:46
girl and I was your daddy what was my
43:48
cat's name
43:49
and I said maniac and he said no the
43:55
white one and I said Boston and he said
43:58
I used to call him boss right so he knew
44:01
the color of the cat's and he knew the
44:04
nickname that only my dad used to call
44:06
Boston
44:08
Maria collected more and more stories
44:11
like this one from Ian she is now
44:14
convinced that Ian is her father reborn
44:17
it isn't only the stories but the
44:20
physical evidence the correlation
44:22
between Ian's heart disease in her
44:23
father's mortal wound that has removed
44:26
all doubt from her mind much of these
44:29
cases often involves memories and
44:33
statements and behaviors the birthmarks
44:36
are something that's completely
44:37
objective and it's something that it's
44:39
beyond memory or beyond chance maybe
44:44
Ian's memory is fooling him perhaps his
44:47
random statements are connected to his
44:49
grandfather by pure luck but it's the
44:51
combination of memory and physical
44:53
evidence that is so convincing
44:59
but God this gave me to you
45:07
God gave you to your mom even though you
45:11
didn't want to come back
45:16
the case of Ian Hagedorn demands the
45:19
question what does all this evidence
45:21
mean there are obviously huge questions
45:26
here which we haven't even begun to try
45:28
to answer such as is there soul if so
45:33
what does that term even mean how does
45:36
it get carried over from one life to the
45:38
next when you look at all these cases
45:41
you can certainly focus on the
45:43
weaknesses if you choose to but I think
45:45
there's also enough here so that if you
45:47
choose you can step back and say that
45:49
there may just be something remarkable
45:51
going on
45:56
if dr. Tucker is right the memories of
45:59
all these children could mean that death
46:03
may just be a road to another life
46:10
[Music]